Change explosive triggers to be more consistent

[SlamBamActionman]

About the PR

Changes the Seismic Charge to start the timer when triggered via a signal, instead of detonating instantly.

Removes the device link from the Explosive Pen.

The Signal Timer is now a 3 second timer.

Why / Balance

We changed C-4 to not be able to instantly detonate while back, and while that PR had its desired effect in reducing insta-bombs it did not consider other signal-supported explosives. The Seismic Charge, Explosive Pen and Signal Timer are now more commonly used for instant explosions, which are not their intended purpose.

The Seismic Charge is a breaching tool available for Salvage to use in Salvage work. I feel this one is pretty self-explanatory why it should not be used as an instant-detonation charge, as its damage and utility very much reflects its use as a non-offensive explosive.

Explosive Pen is a very strong and stealthy explosive able to instantly crit someone without armor, and is fairly cheap for its utility. This comes at the cost of needing to time the throw with priming the explosive and the risk of missing. While this is clearly an offensive explosive, the ability to remove the downside completely via a signaler seems to tilt its balance. The fact it's silent means it would still be too strong as an instant-detonation charge, and even without the signal functionality players should be able to utilize it somewhat effectively via manually activating the pen, placing it in a container with the explosive, placing that next to the target and then running away; it's just a lot more risky and skillful now.

The Signal Trigger is the prime example of a signal-based explosive, however this still enables the issues that instant-detonation charges has. By giving it a 3 second timer it moves closer to the Timer Trigger in power and makes them useful for different usecases:

• The Timer Trigger is now the best choice for throwable explosives. Since you can prime the grenade early and time the throw, if you are able to position it correctly with little time to react. The downside is you need to complete the throw, which can out you as the throw, put you in harm's way, or just miss the throw.
• The Signal Trigger is now the best choice for stationary explosives. While previously you could throw and then instantly detonate, that is no longer optimal compared to the Timer Trigger. It is still optimal for hiding in a container or location and trigger from a distance, using the benefits of signal mechanics to hide the perpetrator and trigger the explosion through walls etc.

Technical details

Yaml

Media

They go beep, or they don't.

Requirements

• I have read and am following the Pull Request and Changelog Guidelines.
• I have added media to this PR or it does not require an ingame showcase.

Breaking changes

Changelog

🆑

• tweak: Seismic Charges now trigger the timer when sent a signal, instead of detonating instantly.
• tweak: Explosive Pens can no longer have signal connections.
• tweak: Signal Triggers for modular grenades now detonate after a 3 second delay.

[ilovehans10]

The message of the first commit is very real. I wonder how many of his old videos you can make outdated with a single PR.

[ScarKy0]

This basically just nerfs an extreme edge case that you will never see in the game. This also makes signal trigger essentially a worse timer trigger (and I already never see them being used)

But I guess it is busted

[SlamBamActionman]

This basically just nerfs an extreme edge case that you will never see in the game. This also makes signal trigger essentially a worse timer trigger (and I already never see them being used)

But I guess it is busted

I took a syndicate monkey role yesterday and was given a toolbox full of pipebombs, an explosive pen and a signaler.

Signaler triggers are not often seen for the same reason timer triggers aren't; Secfab item that locked behind either EMAG or WarOps. I can't link the video since it was sent via Discord, but I did see an RD use a bag bomb to singlehandedly kill a Nukie with this method.

[Thurtik]

but I did see an RD use a bag bomb to singlehandedly kill a Nukie with this method.

Good for them, it was an uncommon thing to do up to this point and it'd be sad to see another creative strategy get essentially deleted from the game

[IWearKhakis]

The Seismic Charge and Explosive Pen changes make sense, but yeah I think I can agree changing modular grenades will mostly nerf crew more so than tots/Nukies, that needs to be considered if the original intention of nerfing C4 and minibombs in the first place was to stop toolbox bombing which was mostly only ever done by antags.

...but, we'll just have to see how liltenhead's latest video changes how prevalent modular grenades are used by antags to insta-bomb people

edit: on second thought, making Explosive Pens not be able to be device linked AT ALL would make funny PDA bombing (like Seeks-Her-Job did) no longer possible, so I'm not sure about this

[IWearKhakis]

on another note, this does make me think that instant explosives by signal trigger could be brought back for seismic charges and C4 but ONLY once they're already anchored/placed. It would allow for elaborate surprise attacks while still requiring more setup than throwing a bag/box underneath someone's feet

[TytosB]

please stop with the liltenhead panic prs to nerf fun edge case mechanics that are rarely ever used, these cases should exist to reward players for out of the box thinking. and no, its not op, its actually hard to get mining chargers now and explosive pens are expensive. not to mention theres already a pr to add instant detonation back to c4.

[BramvanZijp]

I get the pen and seismic charge change, but what is the point of a signal trigger if it then starts a timer.

I dont think the signal trigger should be modified at all, and if it is, it should not get more then a 1 second delay.

[SlamBamActionman]

I get the pen and seismic charge change, but what is the point of a signal trigger if it then starts a timer.

You can find the reasons listed in the latter half of the Why section; there are still plenty of reasons to use a signal trigger over a timer trigger.

please stop with the liltenhead panic prs to nerf fun edge case mechanics that are rarely ever used

These mechanics are only edgecases until they're not. While yes, Liltenhead has spotlighted these mechanics and that may contribute to their use, this does not change the underlying strengths and unfairnesses of the mechanics. Just because it has not yet been adopted by the wider playerbase doesn't mean we shouldn't consider them.

These insta-explosions have been on the chopping block ever since I learned they had potential to be used to bypass the C-4 delay we introduced. A youtuber doing a video on them is, by and large, irrelevant to their balancing.

[Aisu9]

or you could change what ultimately cause this items to be used as such, change traitor's objective, remove the need of perma kill for any kill objective because EVEN ON SS13 PERMA KILL OBJECTIVE ARE ONE OF THE RAREST OBJECTIVES FOR A REASON.
heck just remove the text turning green to no longer reward player's brain to follow already done a thousand time tricks

[saintlygold]

Panic PRing a nerf for something that is rarely ever used in the first place after another Liltenhead video. We already have gatekeeping and inner-player gossip around methods like these, so removing one isn't going to hurt everyone else who'll just move onto the next busted method to RR with

This is innovative, difficult to pull off with lots of planning or TC investment required, and is rarely ever used. Why punish players for innovating new ways to RR instead of the extremely stale noct + minibomb combo that always gets used? This is just going to scare people from sharing their favorite stories and bring harassment towards content creators like Liltenhead who showcase methods like this. The method was already being used and circulated far before Liltenhead covered it, but as soon as he showcases it, there is an immediate push to gut the strategy and damage the already extremely stale variety in antag RRs? This just feels like a spur of the moment change to immediately outdate some fun mechanic and its information

[deltanedas]

its because every john syndie sees the video and does nothing but that for the next week because liltenhead told him to, theres nothing innovating about copying what someone else does (see also: garteg, no hate to gar-tei only to the thousands of copycats)

[metalgearsloth]

Panic PRing

please stop with the liltenhead panic prs

Keep it on topic and actually talk about the PR please.

[Aisu9]

its because every john syndie sees the video and does nothing but that for the next week because liltenhead told him to, theres nothing innovating about copying what someone else does (see also: garteg, no hate to gar-tei only to the thousands of copycats)

idea to actually get and push people to be creative, remove objectives and make the character data sheet easy to go with a single line of text "sabotage the station/crew as you see fit"

[TytosB]

its because every john syndie sees the video and does nothing but that for the next week because liltenhead told him to, theres nothing innovating about copying what someone else does (see also: garteg, no hate to gar-tei only to the thousands of copycats)

then let them do it for the next week and then they forget just like always. kinda a moot point considering that if this was merged it wouldnt be in the game until after a week had passed anyway

[EthanQix]

its because every john syndie sees the video and does nothing but that for the next week because liltenhead told him to, theres nothing innovating about copying what someone else does (see also: garteg, no hate to gar-tei only to the thousands of copycats)

if we cannot handle a week of (specific) chaos why are we even playing this game in the first place

[Errant-4]

I agree with the general concept of this PR, it's just a continuation of what we have already agreed on.

However, I think that the point that was brought up about the exploding pen is valid, and should be considered.
It is a stealth item that can be used in funny bombings, and this functionality should not just be tossed aside.

I think it's abuse potential would sufficiently be brought down if it was simply given the delay on trigger, like other explosives.

• When used as the detonator for a bag bomb, it would now be no more powerful than other choices (or is it the low cost that is the issue?)
• When used after throwing it into someone, the victim would now have a larger window to remove the pen and toss it away. Thus, using it with a detonator would be a tradeoff, rather than a straight upgrade. This is good.
• When used as a stealthy bomb that you sneak on the target before triggering it, there would be a short window to react, which would make it theoretically possible to survive. But more importantly, it would mean that exPen assassinations would now cause the victim to panic and flail for 3 seconds before they die, trying to figure out what is beeping. This is hilarious and should be embraced.

[SlamBamActionman]

I think it's abuse potential would sufficiently be brought down if it was simply given the delay on trigger, like other explosives.

I think this is a good option and was actually what I initially tested in the first commit. However there becomes an issue of alarming the person; it seems like it's not possible to have both "No sound on clicking the pen" and "Beeps on activating the pen". Might be doable with a bit of C# though.

So either we go with that, or we accept a low beep with the pen even on normal use.

[Hrosts]

I said it under a similar earlier PR and will say it here: if the main issue is explosive stacking, make stacking explosives less reliable of a strategy by making explosives behave unpredictably when chain-reacted. Make them fly off, explode with delay, just get borked and not explode, all with random chance.
If the issue is with instant-activation throwables - make things that are not supposed to be thrown harder to throw.

Liltenhead's video had also showcased instant detonation via voice trigger and a radio (you can use a pAI for the same/better effect). This just forces a weird optimization without solving the core issue.

The Signal Trigger is now the best choice for stationary explosives.

I'm not sure if anyone uses Signal Trigger for stationary explosives. Or at least it's a very very rare use case. There's not that many things that you need to detonate like this, with ultra-rare bomb threat traitor RP as the first thing that comes to my mind, and it's easier to use C4 there. What might be more common is usage of the signal trigger with other Payload types, from chemical to silly plushie stuff. This kinda nerfs all of them.

Another thing is - I have no idea how popular the instant explosion toolbox even is. I never seen it done personally, only learning about it from Lilten.

To be clear, I have no issues with removing the instant activation from the seismic charge, or making it work only if planted. The pen though is supposed to be a stealth item, where remote detonation looks reasonable, and the Signal trigger is my main peeve here. It has other uses, stop hyperfocusing on a niche case.

[SlamBamActionman]

I said it under a similar earlier PR and will say it here: if the main issue is explosive stacking, make stacking explosives less reliable of a strategy by making explosives behave unpredictably when chain-reacted. Make them fly off, explode with delay, just get borked and not explode, all with random chance. If the issue is with instant-activation throwables - make things that are not supposed to be thrown harder to throw.

Explosive stacking is an issue as well, something this PR does not aim to solve. It is instead to provide some amount of counterplay to what can otherwise be an instant death caused by another player through no fault of your own.

And don't get me wrong. SS14 is a game where you're supposed to be able to die through no fault of your own. The issue arises when that power gets unilaterally applied to one side of a conflict with little to no resource cost and skill expression required.

Take the China Lake, which I would consider an example of a balanced implementation. It's more or less equivalent in power to a toolbox bomb, instant detonation, very deadly. That weapon requires a high investment of your TC (to the point where it is unavailable to a normal Traitor not willing to put in a lot of extra effort), comes with very limited charges and has a loud signature "THUNK!" that, while maybe won't save you from the first shot, definitely warns you of the second and third so you know to disengage or push using cover. They're also antag-only, primarily seen on one that has to kill the majority of the station and therefore are hit hard by the limited resources given. For Nukies, every shot counts.

So when crew are able to throw an innocuous backpack on the floor, choose when to detonate (possibly instantly) and end up killing a fully kitted out Nukie on WarOps without the Nukie having any form of counterplay... Creative? Absolutely. Too strong? I believe so. And that's true regardless of whether it's actively being utilized in the meta or not.

Instant-detonation for Traitors suffer from the same issue; little to no counterplay, resource cost is low, and few targets necessary. As hated as Nocturine is, at least using that requires you to get your target at an opportune moment when they are away from other people/AI while also investing high amounts of TC to get the drug and hypopen.

Adding something like a 3 second timer to a signal trigger will still allow impressive plays, but require a modicum of skill expression and at least the other party will be notified that something is happening. They'll have a split second to react, whether that be surprise, some movement to get out of the center of the blast zone, or if they're skillful and aware throw the container away (which for 3 seconds reaction time is a lot to ask).

Maybe 3 seconds is too long and makes it undesirable compared to just chucking a normal timer trigger (which you can at least cook), so I'm not conceptually opposed to going down to 2.5 or 2 seconds.